
Original blog post in full context with all text (I cut it down some)
http://liturgical.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/why-factual-discrepencies-in-the-bible-are-a-barrier-to-faith-lower-order-and-higher-order-concerns/
Mr. Burch is obviously very smart, articulate and cares about the health and well-being of people and the Church. This is no way an adversarial thing. My son just sent me the article and asked what I thought of it.
Mr. Burch’s statement are in quotes.
_______________________________________
“As this Ex-Fundamentalist-now-Reformed-Anglican-Anglo-Catholic-Episcopalian Mutt struggles with factual discrepencies in Scripture, I think I finally realized why evangelical and Reformed claims about the Bible have fallen on hard times.”
First, Burch notes Ross Douthat’s analysis of why American became a nation of heretics, as evaluated by Tim Keller. Both are worth reading, but even Keller seems to miss the lynchpin that ties every issue of decline to every other one: the Hermenutical imperative which has been ignored, lost or violently pitched overboard.
Or rather he does not name it. He does, as usual, deal with it himself. My issue there is that we need a lot of smart believers who can do this routinely and not just a few “Super Pastors” like Johnson, Driscoll and Keller to be lonely voices.
But let me simplify by going step by step with a critique.
“The factual discrepancies within Scripture are nothing new, but what they mean, and why they mean what they mean, should be the puzzles addressed by Douthat, Keller, and many others who occupy influential positions in Christianity.”
I have been hearing about these massive “discrepancies” (contradictions) for 30 years, and it is at the core of this article to the extent that it is the very table the cards are to be placed on to build the presentation. Such blatant discrepancies may exist, but in the three decades I have asked people to simply “name three” , no one ever has. In fact, I find that even in reading of scripture, potential discrepancies come more as gilded-edged invitations to dig in far deeper and really do the exegetical work.
Discussion of any potential discrepancy is a very good thing.
Be forewarned however. The Bible is predominantly a Middle Eastern book, and will not easily be fully read with one strictly Greek dualistic pair of glasses. The Greek “glasses” may be helpful in close readings, but are often myopic and unable to deal with nearsightedness. Other lenses are needed for the wider and farther views.
Most of this is just common sense. But every culture, or set of cultures, has its blind spots to common sense.
Our current ecological crisis on every level is the result of a horrible epistemology. And I would argue that current debates about homosexual marriage are not more or less misguided biblically than the “role” oriented model of the last few hundred years in Western culture where men most assuredly do NOT love their wives as “Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her.”
What could be more ironic? Oh yeah…or lust for money and power and ignoring the poor. Need I continue?
“Otherwise, any Christian is on unstable intellectual ground: Making rational arguments based on a self-contradictory book is non-rational. If your starting point is non-rational, then ultimately, your rational arguments are unsupported.”
To this I reiterate something I said in another context today “How am I to answer ‘have you stopped beating your wife’ if I am unmarried?”
And on what basis is rationality unassailable? I see God saying (once) come let us reason together” but nowhere in New Testament literature do I see the preeminence of Reason. Isn’t it really just a reaction to the Enlightenent where humanity, in it’s arrogance (for it issued in the bloodiest Century EVER when it deified Reason) decides it has the right to place “God in the Dock” (on trial). How is humanity able to gain the superior position to judge a God who flatly declares His ways and thoughts are different frm ours and it is ours that are wanting?
It’s not like we were not warned. Also, context again being “everything” as the Bible presents (big picture) a giant rescue operation does it really matter what color your lifeboat is?
And what of the simple “Observer Effect” (not to be confused with Heisenberg’s somewhat related but different “Uncertainty Principle”) where the very act of observation has been shown to change the results of the of the last 50 years how to READ? This would seem to relate quite easily to the subject at hand.
“To me, the challenge of defending the Bible in our time is understanding that people automatically, intuitively, common-sensically organize information according to “lower-order concerns” and “higher-order concerns.”
They may or may not. But how are they able to organize the lower from the higher ordered concerns without having popular culture or personal agendas immediately overlay and reinterpret the biblical texts themselves? It is each document or “book” that is self-organizing when it comes to lower and high-ordered concerns.
Example: the person who “needs” the Bible to be a science textbook has simply missed the point and setup an artificial criteria. The point is how does it present itself? Should we expect Luke to be good on the “facts”? Yes. Why? Because he states plainly to Theophilus that this is his intention.
The Gospel of John, on the other hand, has little concern for historical flow as compared with Luke’s Gospel; but that is because it reveals itself primarily as a “book of signs”. People complain needlessly that the Gopel writers were theological in what they picked what to include and what was left out.
My answer is “So?”
These “Gospels” are meant to be good news…to be evangelistic to various audiences. And so they are.
The young Church is epistolary at it’s core. We have simply made the Modernist/Fundamentalist mistake of trying to codify letters to specific groups of people. or a person (like Philemon) in some sort of universal way…to impose this on the texts which invite no such thing.
This codification, which often does violence to the texts, also gives the illusion of universal application. We know that in some of Paul’s letters he himself makes distinctions between things of higher importance and others of lower (to the extent that he says “I’m not commanding it, just suggesting”).
We have to also ask ourselves why some themes are in most every book and others not at all. Is the issue of women in leadership meant to be universal or if there just a real problem in Ephesus in the court of Diana? If it it universal then why are their women leaders in the early Church that work alongside Paul?
A higher concern would be anything scripture talk about at great length; and a lower one those things scantly mentioned. The homosexual question so enraged in our culture is of little biblical concern. In areas where polygamy was practiced Paul simply says that those in leadership should have one wife; for those who drink? That they should not be addicted.
The concerns of scripture are far deeper and lively? Who will be Lord of your life? How will you deal with the poor, the widow and the orphan? Can you “set apart” Christ as the focal point of your life and actions or will you evade simply pleasing Him on a daily basis?
What is your ambition today?
“Basic factual information could be considered a lower-order concern. As a former newspaper section editor, I can assure you that, all kidding and warranted insults about journalists aside, a cub reporter can get the time and date and basic facts of a city council meeting — and get them right most are of the time.”
I am also a former journalist. I do not see or share his concern yet. It is an “old wives tale?” for if anything is uncanny it is how “Unity within Diversity” is experientially more real in Scripture than occurs anywhere else I can think of.
And it tells us, or individual books do, what is important or not. Remember, the Bible is primarily a “subversive” collection that challenges every human culture and epistemology in any historic time and place.
Thus, for example, John is vehement (big picture item) about the beginnings of the Gnostic heresy of “Docetism” that denied Jesus was physical at all. He also mentions in the third letter than he prefers to talk about things face to face rather than in writing. It is not difficult to weight which is more important even if most Christians at the time had no idea what the Docetists taught. They certainly had no idea that over 2,000 later variations on Gnosticism would be so abundant.
“I think many, many people are not willing to believe the higher-order, theological and doctrinal, claims of the Bible because the lower-order issues are problematic.”
If what he is saying is true this is understandable, yet not insurmountable. I remember once friend Rich said to me with concern “Bacdon, I’m just afraid you are no longer a ‘man of the Book’ ” to which I said “The Book doesn’t tell me to be a ‘Man of the Book’ It tells me to be a ‘Man of God’ “.
If it turns out there are discrepancies…of what order and import if Christ is risen from the dead and the Center of life right now?
Again note that “apologetics” is not very present in the New Testament. At best, the prophecies the Gospel writers point to Messiahship; the author of Hebrews goes a lot farther in teaching using typology. Yet if you want to get a strong solid picture of what the Big Ticket items are, reading Hebrews 1; Colossians 1; and John 1. Three distinct points of view.
“Many people will say, “If you can’t get your facts right, why should I listen to you about anything else?”
And how does one get better information than these eyewitnesses (or those who received information from them) as an English-speaking American postmodern skeptic 2,000 years after the fact? Why would I accept the culture-bound skepticism of my generation over the testimony of 1st Century Middle Eastern eyewitnesses who both spoke the language (Aramaic) and were able to write in the “lingua Franca” of het day?
I mean, really?
Wouldn’t you think a similar thought if a salesperson or a politician couldn’t get his or her facts straight?
I would say that listening to current day Fundamentalists or Liberals is a lot like trying to get straight news from either MSNBC or Fox News.
“Isn’t that a normal, shrewd reaction backed by the Proverbs?”
Is he joking? Is this ironic?
“God hates dishonest scales, right? Let your yes be yes and your no be no, right? Truthfulness, right?”
If some facts do not line up as reported by different sources from different cities for different audiences with different intents that does not equal a lack of truthfulness. The author of this article may have been a journalist as I was myself, but the authors of the N.T. books (for example) are under now such social contract to deliver the daily news.
“Of course, it’s not that simple — but simplistic thinking is exactly what evangelical and Reformed churches have offered on this topic. Sure, you can say there are non-simplistic answers by pointing to the big guns at the seminaries and all the Gospel Coalition folks, fine, but they’re not leading the vast majority of churches.”
This is the best part of the article for he is right. It is just plain dumb what Funda-gelicals and the mainline churches have been doing for the last half a century or more. By insisting on being anthropocentric; commodity/consumer-oriented, ignoring deeper biblical answers on currently hot topics like sexuality and by not seeing themselves as essentially counter-culture (or as Peter Berger entitles one book “For the World; Against the World.”)
“Here’s my current, tentative, in-progress solution.
I think believing in the Nicene Creed, based on the testimony of Scripture, makes sense. As ancient testimony, the Scriptures reasonably could support the Creed. I’m not sure the Scriptures reasonably can support the Bible-study industry that keeps Christian bookstores open.”
This is patently poor thinking. Having undermined scripture (without a single example) he now wants to base the Nicene Creed on it? Then he says that a Bible-study industry cannot reasonably supported by these same documents? What Bible-study industry?
Christian bookstores now stay open not by selling serious theological or exegetical works to believers who want to study scripture…especially difficult passages that require more depth of inquiry. No. These stores contain long series of End Times books (with four more coming even though the end is next week), self-help books, and a host of popular texts on how to succeed as a “Christian” that may not only be unbiblical, they may even be directly contrary. Then there is the “Jesus Junk”.
WWJD? In a Christian bookstore more than likely overturn the tables and get out the whip.
“I think believing in the atonement, based on the general thematic trajectory of the Scriptures, makes sense.”
Okay. Cherry-picking.
“What doesn’t make sense are the Bible studies that try to unpack every little verse and turn each one into grand statements about humanity or morality or whatever.”
I agree that trying to take smaller statements and making all things “equal” (which clearly are not) is nonsensical. It ignores 1) the largest picture of the whole of Scripture; then each Testament; then the books themselves and who they are written to. Some things are obviously universal and large; others immediate and localized. Then there is everything in-between. This is why we study.
But, I suppose a bit like biology, only by doing the detail work can the larger issues be addressed.
“The available text criticism simply does not render a Bible that reliable.”
Patently false. And it is “Textual Criticism”. It is hard to argue with a position that assumes it has a table to build on and not just air.
In an attempt at fairness, I will (upon completing this) go and find some popular attempts to show major discrepancies in he Bible. Should it turn out they are significant then we will go from there. Personally? I do not really care for reasons I may share later. But it’s worth looking into.
“So consider the likelihood that many college-educated people have been forced to assess the higher-order claims of the Bible — its theology, its doctrine, its history, its claims about Jesus Christ — in light of the lower-order problems.”
I’ve been through this personally many times. When “lower-order” concerns are addressed with a professor they become enraged. Why? I do not know for sure. I do find it curious that they so often hire someone to teach the Bible a literature on a campus who so obviously despises it. Would you hire someone to teach Shakespeare who thought him a talentless fraud?
A significant portion of the college-educated middle class dismissed higher-order claims due to problems with lower-order claims.
Having examined neither. For all the talk, I feel I live in the most biblically illiterate of times in human history. A peasant working the fields in 17th Century England knew far more about the Bible than most Christians with a Ph.D. in some other field. It’s category mixing again. I can say something similar: “A significant portion of the college-educated middle class dismissed watching rugby matches because they were not interested in learning the rules.”
Now, I also want briefly to note that we have to ask hard questions about why, if the Holy Spirit guided this canon down through history, God allowed us to wind up with a text that doesn’t offer the kind of testimony a cub reporter could get right.
Burch’s set of criteria has neither been named nor examples given. I go back to my “wifeless” question.
And, if those discrepancies can be explained away legitimately and truthfully, then how can this Book truly be a book for all people, when it requires a specialist’s academic knowledge and historical and linguistic understanding to keep straight?
I answered this above. I have taught college students how to do basic work in thetexts in a weekend. It is not rocket science. We just need some help with time, language and culture. Burch makes it soundlike everyone must become a high tech auto mechanic. I reality a short lesson on how to replace spark plugs and wires goes most of the way.
Instead of this we pack everyone on a bus for a benign wine and cheese tour because it keeps the numbers up.
Read Full Post »
The Ole Fish Stories, or “Calling You Out Dudes”
Posted in bible commentaries, bible reading, biblical history, biblical studies, context, gospels, hermeneutics, interpretation, New Testament, Uncategorized, tagged Azotus, bible, biblical studies, Christopher MacDonald, exegesis, hermeneutics, humor, interpretation, John 21, Luke 5, new testament, New Testament scholarship, study helps on May 12, 2017| Leave a Comment »
Being Koi, Oil on canvas. Christopher MacDonald.
As the class winds down it seems I am getting to learn, or at least hone some skills in my Gospels class.
Our professor had prepared a long document outlining the differences in content between the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark an Luke) and John’s Gospel. It was a pretty good general list, and probably the thing I took issue with was just a part of some list he inherited (let’s give him the benefit of the doubt).
My purpose in repeating my reply is simply to educate you about so-called “double stories” in the Gospels and the sort of (in my view) less than sensical assumptions some “scholars” can make which defy common sense, the texts and clear reason.
In this case it has to do with the two miraculous “fish stories” of Luke 5 and John 21 where nets are cast over the side of the boat and a huge haul of fish is drawn in. Luke’s account takes place at Gennesaret on the first day that James, John and Peter become disciples, the nets tear and it is after Jesus does some teaching from the boat. Only Peter is in the boat with Peter – who essentially freaks out. In John’s acount, it is after the resurrection when the boys have become men and been with Jesus for years. These men (seven of them) have been out all night fishing on the Sea of Tiberias (Galilee), when they obey a stranger (they do not know it is Jesus) the nets fill but do not rip. Peter has the presence of mind to throw on his outer garment before throwing himself into the sea, but the others (including James and John) come along with the fish and they then have the world’s quietest big fishing haul breakfast.
Now some scholars would have you believe that these two stories are the same event.
It gets worse – they have tenure.
So I am “calling them out.”
Having spent a great deal of time in John 21 for my final assignment I am very familiar with the story of the miraculous catch of fish both from that chapter and from Luke 5 (4-11).
I appreciate the hard work our teacher put in preparing this list of distinctions between the Synoptics and John’s Gospel. I want to add before I comment on the two miracle fish stories that:
On point two this is especially pertinent when it comes to men and women with no imagination at all, for they cannot imagine that Jesus, for example, having given a sermon on the “mount,” might also give a very similar one on a “plain.” Now you would think they might have a clue as some of the content is different as well as some of the demeanor. But no, they do not make this possible connection at all – at least not many of them – and keep insisting, contrary to the real possibility over a few years time – that Jesus may have given a hundred such sermons (heck, there may have been a “sermon in the ravine” Think of the acoustics!)
And so we come to our fish story, where the fishermen, after a night of getting “skunked” simply obey the stranger on the beach (that is odd) and don’t get upset when he asks about their fishing in a less than diplomatic way (“Caught any fish boys?” is one possible translation) but they just do it. And then when the fish swell the net John is the first to realize – then Peter.
Is it possible that it is because it has happened before — say the first day they became disciples— these two?
The differences in the story are not just when they occur. Naw…It is ALL different…contexts, nets ripping, not ripping (and that being called into attention), two different responses by Peter…one with others…the other with Peter alone…two different locales. I mean, seriously, other than fish and nets what is the same?
So I would be happy to sign off on an obvious “same” story just slotted in a different place if there was evidence and a good reason to suppose that was so. But to do it here is to take away from the meaning and depth of both stories and minimize them both.
I’ll buy into each Gospel writer picking and choosing what they want for their own theological ends – quite comfy with that. But that is not the same as grabbing a story and re-engineering it. And that is always the underlying aspertion. No one actually comes out and SAYS this – but it is there.
Well I am calling that stuff out.
If anything it seems evident that every embarrassing detail has been left in, as well as no few incidental ones which seemingly have no purpose at all.
This just adds to my laundry list of why modern scholarship is out of touch in many regards: no imagination or common sense.
Read Full Post »